What People are Commenting
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Liturgical Calisthenics & Classless Society
Mary of Agreda in New Mexico
At some point soon, perhaps later this week, I would like to order more books on the Mary of Agreda’s bi-locations to the New World, including here in New Mexico to the local Native Americans. I have shared this with many and the recounting of these amazing local miracles has been uniformly popular.
It certainly is something that would make a great movie or documentary, one can dream of such things.
Bless you,
D.M.
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No to Liturgical Calisthenics
I was hoping you could ask Dr. Carol Byrne a question about the old rubrics of the Mass.
For some time now, I have been kneeling during the Our Father in High Masses (everyone kneels during it in the Low Masses). I was told that standing during the Our Father was an innovation. Recently however, I became concerned that this could be wrong and I do not want to stand out for no reason during the Holy Mass (at present, only I and another family continue to kneel).
Can you clarify for me the correct rubrics regarding the position of the congregation (standing or kneeling) during the Our Father?
Thank you,
M.G.
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Dr. Carol Byrne responds:
Dear M.G.,
Whether to stand at the Pater Noster during a High or Sung Mass is one of those vexed questions that even traditional Catholics today have been known to argue about at length but never manage to settle or resolve.
There are no rubrics for lay people in the traditional Roman Missal. Whatever postures they adopted during a High or Sung Mass were regulated purely by custom, which varied slightly from place to place. These were, however, usually kept to a minimum, such as standing for the Gospel and the Creed, and at the entrance and exit of the priest and his ministers, as ecclesiastical decorum dictates.
My memories go back to the early 1950s when the congregation, including my parents, knelt during most of the High Mass, telling their beads while the choir sang. Any orders for the laity to stand, let along sing, during the Pater Noster would have been greeted with admiratio (astonishment). It would never have occurred to the older generation of those days that they should mimic the actions of the priest and choir (as they are instructed to do nowadays) – in fact, they would have instinctively recoiled from such an instruction.
It was only when the Liturgical Movement introduced “active participation”, and when it was imposed on the faithful by progressive Bishops from the 1960s onwards, that all the congregation were expected to stand up and sing at various intervals, including at the Pater Noster. Since then, they have been in a constant state of movement up and down, up and down, throughout the Mass, performing a sort of Catholic calisthenics. This is hardly conducive to the right atmosphere for contemplation of the Holy Sacrifice, which is the only correct way for lay people to participate in the Mass.
So, it is my opinion that you do well in kneeling during the Pater Noster.
Kind regards,
Dr. Carol Byrne
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Kneeling for Prayer
I was always taught to kneel during prayer. My husband was not. Lately he has been doing our family rosary sitting.
I don't agree, but am not sure if there is any teaching on this?
Thank you,
M.T.
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TIA responds:
M.T.,
We offer you a list of priorities:
- To pray the Rosary kneeling or standing is better than to not pray it;
- To pray kneeling is better than to pray seated;
- The harmony of the family is better than a dispute over which is the best religious posture while praying;
- For a wife to not correct her husband because he is seated while praying is better than to correct him;
- For a wife to slowly influence her husband to kneel while praying is better than to correct him immediately.
For a more detailed rationale you may consider that prayer is indeed a very important part of family life and it is commendable that your husband leads the family in praying the Rosary. As his wife, you should remember to be subservient to him, set a good example for your children and the other members of the family
It would be preferable if your husband knelt in prayer as it places the person in a humble and reverent position before God and brings a serious and sacral tone the family, but it not necessary that he do so. The Church has never made any strict rules in this regard, but the posture that Catholics observe during prayer has always been dignified and reverent as it appertains to the honor given to God.
From Scriptural passages in the Old Testament, we know that in the times of the Mosaic Law standing was the common prayer posture and kneeling was reserved for times of mourning or earnest supplication. Kneeling took precedence as a prayer posture after the Church was founded, which can be seen in passages from the New Testament and the lives of the Saints in which they knelt to pray.
From the examples of History and the past practice of the Church, we see that the two traditional prayer postures for Catholics have been standing and kneeling. Sitting is also commonly admitted when the person is sick, old or for some other similar personal reasons.
We pray for your family to remain ever faithful to the recitation of the Holy Rosary.
Cordially,
TIA correspondence desk
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A Classless Society Descends into Chaos
Ave Maria Purissima!
The photograph of the two young people behaving disgracefully in the presence of a Pope is quite disgusting but not at all surprising. How they were allowed in the presence of the Pope is one question and how the Pope did not dismiss them out of hand is another.
Of course we know the answers. This “Pope” wants to devalue the very office of the Papacy. He does not want to engage in “clericalism” so we need no longer respect the cloth or the High Office of the Vicar of Christ. The girl looks like she is possessed. Her low cut top is an insult while the cross-legged one is equally ignorant.
When I was young, we were taught to respect our elders and betters. Our betters were of course all those in higher positions in terms of social class and authority. We had to curtsy to the Nuns in boarding school if we encountered them in the corridor. These were the rules in force whereby we showed respect for our betters. ...
However, in this age of egalitarianism anything goes. There is no longer anyone or any office to respect it seems. The focus on everyone having rights is destroying society. We need to reverse this and train children in their duties.
A classless society is a society without structure and will eventually descend into chaos. It is also a lie. We all belong to one social class or another. We are not all equal. There is inequality of education, breeding or financial resources. Society needs an elite to give good example and the lower classes need to be edified by those above them. The class structure is the glue which used to hold society together. When we remove the glue we are fatally weakened.
Yours faithfully,
C.P., Ireland
Posted June 1, 2023
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The opinions expressed in this section - What People Are Commenting - do not necessarily express those of TIA
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Many thanks for your reply to my query which puts Rerum Novarum and subsequent social teachings in their proper context.
It’s stating the obvious but it is nevertheless striking and very revealing how the ‘justice and peace’ adherents in the Church are utterly silent about the persecution of Traditional Catholics by Pope Francis by means of Traditiones Custodes, etc.
Yours in Jesus, Mary and Joseph
N.M.